Well, I am glad that my blog prompted the response I wanted, which you can see in the following link.

http://blogs.neoseeker.com/Marshal+Loss/173-overzealous-crusading-in-neoseeker-starring-rome/

I want to state what I think are improvements on Marshal Loss' part. He has adjusted some of his statements to versions that I think are more appropriate and made some proper disclaimers.

quote His Profile

I do however apologize to all americans who took offence at it, it is not my true beliefs and I really am sorry. If you are offended by my current ones, however, then I have no such apology to add. Also to any Australians, who, reading Rome's blog took it literally too, I never claimed to represent my countrys viewpoint nor did I ever intend somebody to do something as stupid, at least in my opinion, as Rome's, though that does not excuse it. I can only apologise to those two groups of people.

I think an apology was certainly called-for, and I am glad he had the guts to do that and admit that the original content of his profile was over-the-top. In light of that, I retract the statement in my last blog, calling him an "indignant fool".

quote His Profile

1. The Government is filled with higly religious people, which would interfere with intelligent politics to say the least - though Obama is a nice, fresh blast of air, I still am worried about the effect it has on their country. Athiests cannot get elected there and if that is not religion interfering with politics, what is?
2. The huge amount of guns in the country - look at all the massacres, it's ridiculous that the government allows it to go on when it could be stamped out. Yes, people use it for things like hunting (as Rome impressed on me) but what apart the gun related violence that occurs there in comparison to other western countries? It is well in excess.
3. Though rather ironic as most people will think coming from me, the general impression I get from a relatively high proportion of Americans on the internet is not exactly a favourable one.

The new content in his blog, I think, is much more fair, and its overall content is something that I can find to be more tolerable and accurate. I think he made the right move here too.

However, I still have some issues with some of the things he has said, and now I will scrutinize his blog and the letter he sent me, point-by-point. To start, I will do an overview of his letter.

quote Marshal Loss

As for not replying, I had intended to give this abit of thought and I had been busy lately but obviously the posting of your brilliant blog has rushed me into it, and I will be posting a blog in response, hopefully better written than this message soon. I will include a link to your blog in it and I expect you to do the same with mine; I will not have your popularity and status on these forums interfere with an argument like this, and I am sure if it ends up going to a popularity contest most people will side with you on the grounds that you are who you are.

I doubt I will have the prestige because of my popularity but rather for what has made me popular. I have always tried to be a truthful and honest person. I do not like things to be overstated or underestimated, especially about my country. Hiding the faults of America has only ever hindered its improvement over time, and overlooking its assets is an outright insult to us. I push for pride without arrogance, so I give credit and place blame as I think it is appropriate. If having these character elements has made me popular, then my popularity only helps me for all the right reasons.

quote Marshal Loss

I do not make assertions without evidence, and have gathered plenty from friends, family, the internet, the media (though scarcely obviously, I know nothing of American media other than the comedy that is Fox News but I can state that the Australian media is incredibly biased). Fair enough that you take it in that fashion but then again it is my opinion, and whilst I may admit that it was written in a haphazard fashion it is still at the very least mostly true.

Well, considering your newest changes to your profile, I hold no reservations in saying that the current draft is not contradicted by the simple, evident facts. You are wrong in saying that the original text was "mostly true". If anything, it was mostly exaggerated to the highest extremes. Also, you should really watch more than Fox News, if you want a better idea of what American media are like.

quote Marshal Loss

I have an open mind, so trying to use the moral high ground really does not affect me.

Your country is based on religion and that is a dangerous thing. Can you honestly not say that it has affected your country in a bad fashion, to say the least? Look at your countrys reputation in the world. It is NOT a good one, and as a non American I can certainly speak for a huge amount of people with that. Put it this way; your 'great country' is less popular than it is popular.

It escapes me, what you thought set me on a rhetorical angle of a moral high ground. Last I checked, I was not coming down on you or your country; I was only defending my nation for its worth. If I had done the former, I would have essentially become the type of American that you envision; however, I vigorously tried to communicate my side in a way that was fair and rational, only trying to set the record straight. I never--not once--established any kind of superiority on America's part.

The way you talk about how awful my country is because of religion, I would say that you stand atop the zenith of self-adorned virtue. I think religion in America has been bittersweet for America, a double-edged sword. Religion has ventured into many extremes that have justified racism and slavery, Social Darwinism, generations of the manifest destiny, and other dilapidations in a country that stands for liberty and justice for all. When we talk about America today, we can clearly view that slavery is gone and racism is only reminiscent of its former days. People have acquired fairer socioeconomic statuses over time. Many churches perform and fund charitable actions. While religious leaders can be hypocrites, and some are the most vindictive of our citizens, you have plenty of nice people, who follow their religious codes. I even follow my own moral code, based on Christianity. I never have brawls or scuffles. I have not committed theft or robbery. I treat women and people of other races with respect. Religion, on some fronts, has its benefits. In general, it is neither good nor bad, and since we are not all so insane that we would be at each other's throats, I sincerely doubt that religion is a carcinogen for our society. It is just a catalyst for emotion and resolve, and it can channel good feelings or bad ones.

Yes, America is unpopular. This is not really a product of religion, per se. It is born out of the mindset that unilateral action across the globe will solve problems. It also emerges from our numerous interferences with foreign governments (often self-established democracies), because we were afraid they would ally with the Soviets. Some of these sins are still pretty recent in history. I still think that, to a degree, a lot of the criticism that America is constantly receiving now is undeserved. We are a great country, and we have one of the best records for advocating freedom and humanity. Look at some of our former politicians. Former President Jimmy Carter founded the Carter Center after his term as President. For the last thirty years, he has traveled the world, providing humanitarian aid to some of the most impoverished places anywhere. In 2002, he won the Nobel Peace Prize for his work (note that Carter is a devout Southern Baptist). Former Vice President Al Gore also won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007 for his lifelong work to combat global warming. International organizations can recognize and decorate some of the outstanding work of some of our leaders, yet I think the international community turns a blind eye to the feats of Americans. I believe this is because the gravitas of our powerful nation provokes more fear than trust, even though we are hardly a hell-bent, dominating empire determined to conquer the world and crush everyone else.

quote Marshal Loss

Really? An American president CANNOT be elected, or at the very least, WILL NOT be elected if he does not say he's a christian. How is that, in effect, not ruling your country?

Easy, the President does not rule the country. The government is divided into different levels and branches, and the President is charged with standing by the Constitution and the will of the people, not the Bible or the will of God. If he made a policy based purely on his religion, he would probably face impeachment and removal from office by his political opponents. It is likely that such a person would never be elected. Why is this? Not every Christian has the same beliefs. You would be surprised at how different all the Christians in America are. Some are opposed to abortion; some are not. Some are opposed to gay marriage; some are not. Some believe in war; some do not. Some believe in welfare; some do not. The term "Christian" does not unify every American who has gone to church under an indivisible canopy of fundamentalism and spiritual resolve. The fact that all Christians are, in essence, different requires our politicians to display religious indifference, or else they will lose the trust of just about every Christian in their constituency. Christianity can have a lot to do with your image, but when it comes to the majority of policies, it is mostly left out.

quote Marshal Loss

Every politician in America is a christian, some more devout than others admittedly, but my point still rests.

Wrong. Senator Joe Liberman is a Jew. Congressman Pete Stark is an Atheist.

quote Marshal Loss

Aha? Saying a you are an Athiest is political suicide in the United States (Richard Dawkins). It's one thing to say that your Government has said that but let's face it saying something is not the same as following something through, is it now?

Being an Atheist just greatly shrinks your chance of being elected, if you run for President more so. It has less of an effect, if you have a more liberal constituency. This does not mean that religion rules the nation. It simply has an influence on politics here.

quote Marshal Loss

Though my wording is admittedly strong, you cannot deny that American politics has its base in religion. Think of one presdiential candidate (for example) that has not been a Christian. Think of one presidential candidate who has not signed off at a speech in the US with a "and god bless you all". Whilst I may be wrong in using such strong language you are surely wrong in saying/implying that Religion is not involved with politics.

No, I am not wrong. Neither now nor then have I denied that religion has a role. It certainly has a significant, influential role in American politics, but it is, by no means, its base. The base of American politics is America, which includes religion, but many more things as well. Besides, ending a speech with "God Bless You, and God Bless America" is not the same as running a religious state. Did you not just state that it is one thing for the government to say something and another actually to do something?

quote Marshal Loss

I was not making that insinuation, I was merely pointing out that in the very least it is dangerous - look at the multiple massacres in the last few weeks alone. Blame it on the financial crisis but it's happening all over the world and I don't see innocent people dying for one madmen's beliefs that he needs to go out with a bang, made infinitely easier by the fact that he can wwalk into a store, buy a gun and then proceed to kill people.

If saying that every American carries a gun is not insinuating that we are not ready to kill people, then you must have poor idiomatic skills. That is exactly what it suggests.

However, you need not to tell me that the availability of guns is a problem. I already know that.

quote Marshal Loss

quote Rome

As far as handguns are concerned, I will concede that these require more regulation and that they contribute to most of the gun-related murders, but most people who own these are responsible enough not to let that happen. Do you really mean to tell me that Australia is without murder? Because it sure seems like you are suggesting that.

In no way was I/am I suggesting that, you are merely twisting my words to find more backup for your viewpoints.

Quit trying to find excuses for your lack of linguistic techniques. I doubt you even have a good idea of what my viewpoints are, do you?

Also, you shouldn't criticize a country for problems that you share.

quote Marshal Loss

quote Rome

Our system of government is not stupid. Like any democratic structure, it does get burdened by the political mudslinging. I doubt Australia is without it. Wherever you go in the world, people are competing for power.

I would have thought that obvious; it's hardly needed to be stated. Obviously Australia has its problems too - if you didn't notice, I never once said it didn't.

Again, don't criticize a country for problems that you share. It's hypocritical.

quote Marshal Loss

quote Rome

In Africa, they do it with genocide. In Afghanistan, they do it by blowing up schools and enslaving women. In China, they do it by stealing the rights of their citizens and holding political prisoners. Be glad that America, like Australia, does it behind a desk or through vigorous campaigns in the media.

Don't try to play the "be grateful for what you have" card, that's flawed completely and while yes, I am grateful that I was not born in such a disadvantaged state that does not change flaws in our own systems.

Do you solemnly believe that I'm using that trick? You do not even live in America, so I cannot remotely fathom how that could be "be grateful for what you have". You should just appreciate that a nation so powerful as us is not as religiously ruled as the Taliban regime, brutal as an African warlord, or as dominating as the Chinese government.

Nor am I trying to hide the flaws that are in our system. Have you paid absolutely no attention? Have I not pointed out that America has its flaws? Do you even have the slightest concern for the message that I am trying to get across to you?

quote Marshal Loss

That is all very well for you and the new Government changes alot of things for my point of view alone, however my comments were directed at the stupid things that the Bush Government had committed, realistically, the crimes that had been done. It is your opinion that they have made life for you better; I cannot comment on that, as obviously I am not an American.

I am glad that you can admit that you do not truly know about America for a change.

quote Marshal Loss

Yes we have - we, however, recognised it officially with an official apology. There is always work to be done but our progress on the issue in the last few years (for 12 odd years we were under a liberal government that refused to acknowledge that any wrongs had been committed at all, citing that they were not responsible as they were not there at the time.

Are you saying that the American government has not for our racist policies then? Again, you are suggesting that.

quote Marshal Loss

I refer in general to Americans on the internet, so I probably deserve some of what follows due to the misconception but nevertheless I stand by my judgement that at the very least, a decent portion of the Americans on the internet (at least a 50/50 ratio) do your countrys image no good.

Think for a moment. Most of the people you see on the Internet are young and ignorant. Do any of them do any good in representing their respective countries?

quote Marshal Loss

quote Rome

You see, the quality of being ignorant, uneducated, or naturally absentminded exists in both my country and yours, as you have proven.

And you have confirmed.

quote Rome

No one will ever be perfectly enlightened about the issues and cultures of all the people in the world. Ignorance can never be fully conquered, and the lesson we take, and that you should take,

Quite a defeatist attitude there, unusual considering the nature of your message.

Again, I am just being truthful and honest. It would be an atrocious lie to suggest that someone can be perfectly enlightened about everything.

quote Marshal Loss

If you expect me to take your message, you should, too.

quote Rome

is that to condescend on people for their ignorance is, for all intents and purposes, hypocritical and a shameful representation of your native Australia.

Unlike you, I have not denied the truth about my country. You have exaggerated several things to the point that they became a sad memory of something that once was true. You have wrongfully and inaccurately accused me of such denials, to salvage your argument as best you can, and in that, you have failed.

quote Marshal Loss

I never claimed to respreent the viewpoint of my country, indeed, I never claimed, at least in my original blog, to represent anyones viewpoint other than my own. However glorious you deem your countrys reputation to be, it is not viewed like so by the rest of the world.

This is the fallacy in your logic. Some Americans are the way you have described, and then you make it appear as if the whole country is that way. When you portray some to represent all, you are setting yourself up for the same "ridicule and humiliation", as I said in my first letter. You disclaim yourself as a representative of Australia, but you do not seem to be giving that benefit to everyone.

quote Marshal Loss

quote Rome

and as a proud, patriotic American,]

Laughed here, sorry

Why laugh? I guess you do not love your country, or otherwise, you would understand.

quote Marshal Loss

quote Rome

yet a deeply committed citizen of the world, I think it is important to address this apparent ignorance on any front.

I like the way you wrote this; apparent was, or at least should be, the key word. I put trust in your intellect that you will reaffirm your view point once you have read this.

quote Rome

When Americans act in ways that you described, it is embarrassing, but when you and other people abroad do the same to me and my country, it is offensive. Frankly, I do not know which I find preferable. Both are bad, and both are disgraceful.

Well then I must also say I do wonder whether the embarassment of your country is equal to the offence thrown against it. It is worth a thought, surely.

I find neither preferable (which I said). Does that answer your question?

quote Marshal Loss

Whilst very well written there are some major flaws, "Rome", and whilst my original paragraph on my profile was wrong I admit that freely and you are effectively arguing against a point of view that I never really had.

Against my real point of view though your argument holds little weight, though some sections are effective I do not find myself swayed. I assume this discussion will continue, as demonstrated by your rather overzealous approach with your blog, I think you are lacking something in your life personally and are trying to make up for it online.

quote Rome

I hope that you will open your mind to a country that, despite its faults, does remarkably well for itself. I hope that you will analyze and look back on what you have written and realize that such impulsive and arbitrary accusation only subjects you to the same level of ridicule and humiliation.

You really are taking this too seriously, you do know that? I don't care what some weirdo who "will never be loved in life" and who basically declares themself a social outcast on their profile thinks of me, and trying to "ridicule me", will, in the end, only make yourself look stupid. Being an overzealous crusader of American rights on the internet does not make up for what you are not in real life. Whilst I do understand your irritation at my original comment I fervently hope that you are actually intelligent enough to read over this and truly understand my point of view. You won't like it, but maybe then will you understand.

Now you have committed the classic ad hominem fallacy of logic. So what if I doubt I will find love? So what if I do not have many friends? I am not hated, in fact, most people think that I am a very intelligent person. However, my personal life is neither here nor there in this debate. Trying to bring that up is absolutely disgraceful. I have said things you do not like, but nothing of that caliber. If you are really taking the time to respond to all of this so you can bash my country, does that really show that you are any different than me? Apparently, as suggested in your profile, this letter, and your blog, you have a great deal of pride at steak, and you are taking the means to defend it. Honestly, who is the one feeling more insecure? I just wanted to go over the facts. You have to make it personal. Do you really expect that you are making yourself look intelligent, when all you do is try to bash America, lie about what I said, and then try to make me look stupid by throwing out stuff that the Neoseeker community already knows?

Seriously, you have no class at all. You may no longer be an indignant fool to me, but you are still basically indignant and ignorant.


Now most of the other points in your blog were already addressed in response to your letter, so I will go out with what I thought the whole point of the blog was.

You wanted to defend your pride, and your best tactic is by trying to make me look like I'm the screaming rabble of angry Americans, but anyone who reads what we have written should know better. In fact, you better fit the part that you have assigned to me. You use a lot of spin, but you lack substance. You generalize too much, and when I call you out on it, I am overzealous. When I call you out on it, I am just trying to fill a hole in my life. You take no real steps to prove why you are right, so much as you try to circumvent the truth and slander your opponent. Your greatest accomplishment is that you have made a fool of yourself. Congratulations.

Edit: Dudeguy made some good commentary here.

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/directmessage.php?m=24591262